Mat Cauthon Comments
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I posted a few responses about a month ago, but they never came through for some reason. I will try to sum them up in a single comment. Responses to "part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5". Part 2. In this you agree with me. "Obviously some few did believe when it was spoken". Saying this you show that what my point was was correct. Some few did believe, some few did hear, etc. Part 3. "How would we know that He was talking to all mankind"? When it is supported elsewhere in scripture. Part 4. That link uses circular reasoning. It references John 5:37 which I already proved was not applicable. As to Proverbs 30, I brought more to the table which was not covered in the link, or your response. Please respond to what I write, don't simply repeat yourself when it's not applicable. Part 5. The wording is very important. "Me". There is one being speaking. God and Christ don't talk in unison (as far as the Bible says). "I am the LORD most high" is a single being speaking. It's the difference in Guardians of the Galaxy between "I am Groot" and "We are Groot". One versus multiple. "I am the LORD most high" is the first case. (No disrespect meant). There is one LORD most high, the Father.
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I think there's something wrong with arguing that they were not in a Father-Son relationship before Jesus was born in the flesh when there is no evidence of it, and certainly evidence to the contrary. To take a leaf from Mr. Metzel's book, if you examine a direct interlinear translation of Proverbs 30, you can see that it is not referring to someone else. "he confirmed all of limits of earth what? name of him and what? name of son of him". While this feels like awkward wording, it does agree with the adjusted translation, "Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell". This is referring to God the Father and Jesus Christ, since there is no one else who it could refer to. If it was referring to "Who can tell this, and what is his son's name", there would have to be at least a little reference to that, and there is not. Every word of God is pure, including Proverbs 30. It's there for a reason, and we can learn from it. As a question, where does it say that they were not in the relationship? It's important, so God would put it in, 2 Pet 1:3.
I apologize if that came across as argumentative. I was trying to be terse, as I was running up against the 1200 character limit, and I had already considered several of the counter arguments which I discussed, and used against myself. Other places I see God the Father talking to people are when Jesus was baptized ("This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased"), in Psalms, where David quotes him as 'The LORD said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand..."', and several others. One other thing that just occurred to me is this. If God the Father and Jesus Christ were exactly the same before Christ came down, how could there be the commandment "You shall have no other gods before me"? There cannot, as I see it, be the "LORD most high" if there are two beings of identical eminence. So there have to either be two who are equal but not identical (A Wrinkle in Time, if you're into literature, discusses something along these lines", or only one being; God or Christ. We believe in one God Being, where God and Christ are one, but we believe in both of them. To say that they were of equal eminence would be to nullify part of the bible, or one of them. Thanks, sorry for the tone, 1200 charac--
Part 1. What about Psalm 2? It mentions the Son several times, especially clearly in verse 12. I guess I don't see the difficulty with saying that the Father and Son have been Father and Son from eternity, choosing rather to adjust scripture to show that they haven't been. Two beings can be on the same plane of equality without being identical. Part 2. If Jesus was not talking only the the Jews (Or rather the Pharisees; I incorrectly stated it earlier), rather speaking to everyone, then not only would he be stating that no one had heard the Father, but also that no one believed in whom He sent. This, however, is clearly a contradiction, therefore showing the truth that Jesus was only talking to the Pharisees. Being a mathematician, I like using proofs such as this, though they can be confusing for others sometimes. Use wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction as a reference. After all, who would venture to rest the proof of [whether the Father speaks] on such a text? Nowhere else in scripture does it say anything about the Father not speaking. Also, even in John 5:37, it doesn't mention "No one", rather choosing "You". Please help my understanding of this complex topic.
I have a question about the first few minutes. If God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son were not in a Father-Son relationship before Jesus Christ came to earth in the New Testament, who is being referred to in Proverbs 30:4. "Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?". This seems to me to be referring to God the Father, and it mentions "What is His Son's name", referring to the fact that He had a Son.
Also, John 5:37 is the only place in the bible where it specifies that "You have neither heard His voice at any time". It continues "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe". This is not referencing everyone, rather a specific group, in this case the Jews. Other places say that you have not seen the Father (His face, visage, etc.), but nowhere that you have not heard Him. Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to say that He spoke to people, e.g. Hebrews 1:1 where it specifically says the Father spoke to the prophets before sending His Son.
So therefore, since "both God (the Father) and the Word (Jesus Christ) can be considered the 'God of our fathers'. It is the context that determines to whom it refers.", that is equivalent to "both God (the Father) and the Word (Jesus Christ) can be considered the 'God of the Old Testament'", since the "God of our fathers" is referring to the "God of the Old Testament". Also, how do we know that God the Father did not speak directly to people in the Old Testament period? The Bible does not say that He did not speak to anyone, and Hebrews 1:1 says that he spoke by the Prophets (although it can be dismissed by presuming that an angel spoke to the Prophets, despite a lack of scriptural evidence for that theory). Also, when you mentioned that God the Father and Jesus Christ were not in a Father to Son relationship before Christ came to earth in Matthew, to whom does it refer in Proverbs 30, when speaking of the one who created a load of great things, then says "What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?". Thank for answering these questions.
Andy, you mentioned that you can tell who was God vs. Jesus by who interacted physically? We already discussed Hebrews 1:1, however, where we reached the conclusion that it specifically says that God the Father spoke to the prophets in the Old Testament, thereby showing that there was physical interaction from God the Father, and not just Jesus Christ.
Skip Miller, "Is this the hill over which we choose to expend enough energy to die upon"? I suppose it doesn't really matter which God we worship, right? It's mostly quite interesting to see how God the Father was not disjoint from the Son, but has been working with Him throughout time. It's comforting for some of us to realize that God the Father is there as well, and is not a deadbeat dad (as we see so often in this world), but is as we would expect; working alongside His Son in bringing many sons to glory.
The hardest scripture I have with reconciling Jesus being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is Acts 3:13. Would someone mind explaining that? Thanks.
Acts 3:13. "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus". (ESV).
Thank you for the clarification. I certainly did remember, and knew several of the scriptures, about how "No one has seen God". I did not take issue with that statement, rather only with "No man has heard the Father", which you clarified quite well. Which booklet were you referencing earlier? I was looking at the available ones, and saw several that you might have been talking about (Who is God, Jesus Christ: the Real Story, the Fundamental Beliefs of the United Church of God, etc.) Thanks!
That makes more sense. I had noticed those earlier, which had added some confusion. So I guess that there is actually no conflict in God the Father being the one speaking in Hebrews 1:1. Always great to ponder things such as this, and be able to get to the bottom. Or another one, Proverbs 30:4, where we see that God the Father and his Son were in a Father Son relationship quite a while before Jesus came to earth as a sacrifice. Or Acts 3:13 where it says that God the Father is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (unless Jesus is his own Father). There are a lot of interesting scriptures out there.
Proverbs 30:4, ..."what is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?"
Acts 3:13, The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; who you delivered up, and denied Him... etc.
The Bible is great because you can prove whether something is true or not. I really appreciate this great discussion on sections of it, and thought it good to ponder on these two scriptures as well.
Okay, after reading it again a few times, I think I have it straight. "God the Father spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son" essentially? So in the sermon you were saying that the being speaking "in these last days" is the Son, but the one who was speaking before is the Father. Do I have that straight?
Hello! I was just listening to this sermon, and had a question come to mind. Right about minute 28, you referenced Hebrews 1:1. "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in hese last days He has spoken to us by His Son" (ESV). You mentioned that this clearly showed that it was Jesus speaking. Are you saying that this is Jesus speaking now, or previously? Because it almost seems that it was God the Father who spoke through the prophets. My only major question on this sermon. Great job, and well put together, thanks!
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