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Thank you, Jerry. Again, happy Sabbath to all.
There's a passage in Scripture that is quite puzzling. Have you ever wondered about that phrase that Jesus Christ said that the first shall be last and that the last shall be first?
After he gives a parable, in another place, it's just another account that he's being described, and then he puts at the end there. And the first shall be last and the last shall be first, and leaves it there. You have to kind of scratch your head. Well, what does that mean exactly? And so, just like everything that is written in the Bible, it's very important for all of us to understand. When Jesus Christ said such a thing, it was because it was important. Just like when he said, he who has ears to listen, to pay attention, well, here he's also giving a biblical truth. It is a biblical principle that, as you will see, has application in our own lives and also for all of mankind.
And there are three important lessons that we can learn from this very simple phrase that he repeats in three different accounts in the Bible.
And they teach us a lot once we learn what it is.
And so, that's what we're going to do right now. Let's go to the first account, which is called the account of the rich young ruler.
And it is found in all of the what they call synoptic or similar gospels, which are Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And this account of the young ruler is found in all three of them. And with the phrase at the end, and the first shall be last, and the last shall be first. So, what does he mean by this? Let's go to the account in Mark chapter 10, which is the longest account of the rich young ruler. Because, as you will see, there's a lot of truth involved here. In Matthew 10 verse 17, it says, Mark 10 verse 17, Now, as he was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before him, and asked him, Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? That's a good question. Because we all want to receive eternal life after we die, and we need to be doing something about it before we die. So, this person, which in Matthew, it mentions he was a young man. It adds that he was a young man. And in Luke, it adds that he was a ruler. This is a term that's used primarily for those that were in charge of the synagogue. And basically, we're the ones that were taking care of things and could make certain judgments, local judgments. It also can apply to those that were part of the Sanhedrin. So, we have three different characteristics. One was that he was young. He wasn't an old man. And he must have been quite capable to be in charge at such an early age of something like a synagogue. And it also says that he was quite wealthy. So, he was in the upper ranks of society. He had power. He had wealth. And he had youth. The vigor. And so, he came before Jesus Christ.
And then Jesus Christ answered him when he asked about, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? So, Jesus said to him, why do you call me good? No one is good but one that is God. And of course, at that time, Jesus Christ was not revealing himself as being a God. God in the flesh as such. That was something that he would eventually die revealing it. But he just said, God is good.
And of course, he hadn't finished the race himself. So, at that time, he was still being tested.
And so, we know God, he was referring to God the Father here. Going on, it says in verse 19, you know the commandments, talking about what you need to do.
Do not commit adultery. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not bear false witness. Do not defraud, which is part of lying and stealing. Gets involved in that. Honor your father and your mother.
Now, Christ didn't read all 10 of the commandments. It was obvious being a rich, young Jewish ruler, he didn't tell them, didn't have to say, well, keep the Sabbath, because in Israel, everybody kept the Sabbath at that time. Everybody had the one God.
They weren't steeped in paganism like the rest of the nation. So, he emphasized love toward neighbor, as he was going to bring out a point about this young, rich ruler.
And the young, rich ruler answered and said to him, teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth. And he was a good Jew.
He had committed himself to obeying God. He kept the Sabbath. He kept the holy days. He kept the food laws. He tithed. He did all these things that were required at that time.
Verse 21 is very interesting, because even if you kept all of these things, how about your inner life?
He had the outer life. He was doing the right things. But how about the inner life? And Christ saw this young man had a problem.
And then Jesus, looking at him, in other words, focusing on him, he can read the heart and the mind. Loved him, the term from Agape. So, he thought, now, this is a good young man. There's a lot of potential here.
And he was attracted to this young man.
Perhaps for him to become a disciple, maybe a future apostle.
And said to him, one thing you lack, if you want eternal life, you have one idol that you have to get rid of.
He said, go your way, sell whatever you have, and give it to the poor.
And you will have treasure in heaven. And come, take up the cross. In other words, take up the sufferings of becoming a disciple of mine, and follow me. So, he was calling him to be one of the disciples, one of the future rulers of God's kingdom. But this rich young man was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. And so, he declined that calling of being a disciple of Jesus Christ, of one day ruling under Christ in God's kingdom, because he wanted to rule in this world. He was having a good time. He had money. He was popular. He had power.
And he just couldn't get rid of that. He couldn't put that away aside.
And so, he chose to be first in this society, even if he then ends up being last in God's kingdom. Going on, Jesus Christ said in verse 23, then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, how hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God. I've seen that. You look at the people that God calls to his true church, and they're humble. They're not from the big and rich and mighty at all.
And the disciples were astonished at his words, because they had different values. At that time, the rabbis taught that you were blessed according to how righteous you were. And if you were blessed with riches and with honor, it must mean that God is very pleased with you. And if you were poor and insignificant, well, you must be doing something wrong. And so, the disciples said, well, this young man, he would have been an excellent disciple. Why did you have to ask him to do such a sacrifice? And this is what Jesus Christ reveals. He goes on, and he says in verse 24, And the disciples were astonished at his words, but Jesus answered again and said to them, Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God. See, it wasn't having riches, because riches can be a blessing. As they say, it can be a wonderful servant, but it can be a terrible taskmaster. If you let riches become your chief priority, and you can't live without it, you can't sacrifice, then you become a slave to the riches. And it talks about here those that trust in riches. See, this young man had a problem of covetousness, of loving riches, and he couldn't put it away. He loved it more than God and a calling that he could have received. He goes on to say, verse 25, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? Because they thought, well, this young man, he was being blessed. And how can Christ say that this man has a much harder time of entering the kingdom of God than those others around him that didn't have all those blessings? And Jesus looked at them and said, with men it is impossible, but not with God. For with God all things are possible. It's talking about through God's Spirit all things are possible. You can be part of God's kingdom if you possess God's Spirit, but you're not going to do it through being wealthy or doing charitable works or anything else. It is through God that we can gain that eternal life.
And then Peter began to say to him, See, we have left all and followed you.
So they were astonished while this rich young man, he passed up the opportunity to serve you, to be a disciple. But we've given up our professions, our families, to follow him, to become disciples of his. So Jesus answered and said, Assurely I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands which are fields. That's the economic income for my sake and the Gospels who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands. Yes, we had to give up a lot, but this is our family now. We have a lot of brothers and sisters. And God blessed us with the homes that we live now, but through following God's way, putting God first.
And it says, With Persecutions, because that comes along too.
And in the age to come receive eternal life, but many who are first will be last and the last first. So the first lesson, and I want to read this last verse, verse 31, in the easy reading version, which helps us understand the meaning, is many people who are first now will be last in the future, and many who are last now will be first in the future.
So he was comparing the rich young man and how he rejected that calling to those who accepted God's calling, the sacrifices that would accompany it, and that even if they're not taken into much account in this life, in the future they will be part of that first resurrection. The best resurrection, and as it tells us in Revelation chapter 20, in verse 6, these are the ones who are in that sense going to be first in the kingdom. It says, verse 6 of Revelation 20, Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power. They're not going to die again, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Much better, much better future than just reigning for a certain amount of time in this world and enjoying the wealth for a certain amount of time, if that is what you put first.
See, when Christ's disciples followed him, they left their nets, they left their jobs, but nobody took everything and sold it and sold it to the poor because they did not have the same problem as this rich young ruler. He lusted. He coveted that money. He couldn't do without it. Whereas the rest of the disciples, sometimes they'd go back and work for a while, be with the family, and then they would continue. So this idea that you should sell everything and give it to the poor, that's not in every case at all. But there are times when it has become such an idol that one person covets it and loves it. The lust of money is the beginning, the root of all evil.
And I have two examples I can give you from my ministry, similar to this rich young ruler and another person that was very different circumstances.
When my wife and I lived in Chile, I pastored the church there for 21 years, and one of the people that started coming into the truth was an ex-Chilean senator.
He was a lawyer. He was a politician. When I visited him, I was really surprised because that was the first visit in the rich section of town I had ever been to. And just about that was the only person that I ever met in this way. He was a very bright man and educated best schools also in the U.S.
He was bilingual, very nice person. And you could tell God was calling him. He knew about the Sabbath. He knew about the Holy Days. He accepted it. He started tithing. He would tithe more than all the rest of the brethren put together. And so my wife and I visited him one time. He invited us and just a beautiful home. Wife was a painter.
She had her own studio and very rich people. But as it is in God's church, you don't look at the riches. You don't look at who is who. You treat everybody the same. They have the same standards. And so I was hoping one day he would say, well, I'd like to come to church. And he'd already studied everything. He knew it was the truth. But a year came and a year went and he didn't attend church.
And so there was one time when he finally did ask me. And I told him where we met. We had about 300 brethren at the time meeting. It was a school auditorium. And I remember he came to Sabbath and he sat there. And we had a sort of second story part to it. And he sat there and I welcomed him. And I watched him while I gave the sermon and everything else. I was very happy because finally he had come to services.
And guess what? Afterwards I talked with him and I could tell he was uneasy. Oh, these people. They're all so humble. This isn't the people I hobnob with. I feel uncomfortable. Like they kid sometimes in this big city of Santiago of about seven million at the time. There were some people in the rich area that had never come south to see the rest of the city.
They were just there hobnobbing. They had everything they needed. The schools, work, everything was there. And so boy my heart just fell. I said, oh boy. Yeah, he's not feeling comfortable. He's not looking at God's truth and putting it first. And so he never returned. And later he called me one day and he said, you know what?
I can't make it to the baptism that I wanted to. This society has me engulfed with all of the activities, with all the people, with all the influence. I can't get rid of it. It's like being caught by an octopus. And every time I throw one of those tentacles out, another one grabs me. Well, guess what? He never did come into the church. He was first in society, but unfortunately never received God's Spirit.
And then I have the other story about a very humble lady. She was a mother of one of the members and she started getting interested. And she had reared seven children, just basically on her own because her husband had left her.
And most of these children, they went to the universities. They're all professionals. And she never learned how to read. She never had the chance to read her Bible. Boy, but did she know her Bible. She had memorized so much of it. And when I came, I talked with her and we talked about the things that God says we should do. She started putting it in the practice right away. And before you know it, within that year she was saying, I want to be baptized.
And she was baptized. She received God's Spirit. And to this day, Cottie and I visited her on this last trip over there in October in Chile. And she's almost 90 years old. Never learned how to read. But she watches the telecast from her living room. She is such a converted example. And guess what? She might be last in this society, but she's going to be first in God's kingdom.
That's how this first account applies. The principle of He who is first shall be last, and He that is last shall be first. Let's go to the second account. It's found in Matthew chapter 20. Matthew chapter 20 verse 1.
It's interesting, before I go past this about this Senator and rich person, he always wanted me to ask him to get baptized. And I never did. Because that has to come from you. I can't be the minister. Oh, it would have been nice to say, oh, look, we baptized him and everything. No, because that's before man. If the person's heart is not in it, if he's not committed and takes the initiative, the minister should never take the initiative. Because then you're being baptized by a man and not through God the Father. And so he never did. And I never asked him about it. In Matthew chapter 20 verse 1, Christ goes on to say, after verse 30 before said, but many who are first will be last and the last first about the rich young ruler. He goes on to say, for the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. Now, when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, that was the silver coin that was a day's wage. He sent them into his vineyard. So this was a standard daily payment. They all agreed with it. So this was early in the morning, probably around seven in the morning. And he went out about the third hour. So this would be around nine in the morning. And saw others standing idle in the marketplace. Sounds like something you see in Home Depot, right?
And said to them, you also go into the vineyard and whatever is right, I will give you. So they went. So these, they didn't have to spend the full 10 hours of work. These already, two hours had gone past, at least, if not more. So they went. And again, he went out about the sixth, which is at 12 o'clock noon. And then at ninth hour at 3 p.m., usually at 6 p.m., work ended. And did likewise. And about the 11th hour, this is like 5 p.m., he went out and found other standing idle and said to them, why have you been standing here idle all day? They said to him, because no one hired us. So they weren't going to have any food on the table that day. And he had mercy. He said to them, you also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right, you will receive. So they said, we're just going to work one hour. And as you know, working in the vineyards, that's a lot of heavy work under the sun. But this, these just worked for one hour. So when evening had come, that's around 6 p.m., the owner of the vineyards said to his steward, call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first. So those that only worked one hour came, they're probably expecting about a tenth of a denarius. And when those came, who were hired, about the 11th hour, they each received a denarius. They received a full day's wage. But when the first came, they supposed, the first were the ones all working the whole day, they supposed they would receive more. And they likewise received each a denarius. And when they received it, they complained against the landowner. Is that typical? You hire somebody who's so thankful and then later on, sock it to you.
They wanted more money, saying, these last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day. But he answered one of them and said, friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your I evil because I am good? Are you greedy? Well, the landowner was being generous.
So the last will be first and the first last. And then he adds, for many are called, but few are chosen. So here's the second lesson. This has to do when a person is called by God.
Christ explains to his disciples that we should not selfishly strive to be rewarded more because they came first as young adults into the church. Christ is saying everyone who is converted and who perseveres will receive the same reward, eternal life. That's the denarius, which nobody deserves. No matter how much time you work, nobody deserves it. But no matter how late in life, the last period is the last period it is through God's mercy. Each gets a denarius, a symbol of eternal life. And in the first resurrection, it doesn't matter when they were called, the important thing is to persevere to the end and be part of those who are chosen. So some people might think, well, I've been called since early youth and all these years and doing everything and sacrificing. And yet, even with what we've done, nobody deserves eternal life. And what if a person comes into the church and just is there for a short period of time, but they're faithful, they have their heart committed to it, and if they die, they're going to get that denarius. They're going to be part of that first resurrection. And so not necessarily those who are first called when they're in the early period of their lives are necessarily going to get things extra. Those that are called last in life, they're going to get the same reward because God is generous. And by the way, this principle also applies in the second resurrection. When people come, they're going to get eternal life. Maybe some people will say, well, look, they made a mess of all their lives in this life, but in the second resurrection, they get a chance to change, to repent, to be converted, and they will be incorporated into the kingdom of God. And so nobody should think that they deserve more or that somehow the other people, that's not fair, that they put so little effort into it and time, and they get eternal life. None of us deserve it. We're all thankful, and we shouldn't be either envious or disdain somebody that didn't put as much effort or sacrifice into following God. So that's the second principle that we can learn from this parable.
By the way, this second lesson also applies regarding what period of history one is called. It could be at the beginning either of the church, just because you were there with Jesus Christ, and you were a disciple, and you were a church member there, and Pentecost of 31 A.D., and that you received the Holy Spirit at that time. That doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be you are going to be rewarded more.
From righteous Abel all the way to the last person called before Christ returns, if you're faithful, you get to have a denarius. You get to have eternal life, and you get to be part of that first resurrection, which nobody deserves. So God is very merciful and generous.
Now let's go to the third account in Luke chapter 13. Luke chapter 13 and verse 22. Here's a whole different account. This doesn't have to do with the rich young man, or with the parable. It says in verse 22, and he went through the cities and villages, talking about in Israel, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then one said to him, Lord, are there few who are saved? And he said to them, Strive to enter through the narrow gate. For many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Again, many can be called, but few persevere and are part of the chosen at the end. And then he goes on to say, when once the master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open for us, and he will answer and say to you, I do not know you where you are from. Yeah, they want to be part of that kingdom, too.
Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets. But he will say, I tell you, I do not know you where you are from. Depart from me all you workers of iniquity. The term here has to do with breakers of God's laws. It has to do with those that are not keeping the righteousness that comes through God's teachings and through the grace of God as well. Verse 28, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom and yourselves thrust out. They thought as Jews that were believing that they automatically were going to be with Abraham and Jacob and Isaac and Jacob.
They are mistaken. They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and all sit in the kingdom of God. And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last. And so again, this is a different scenario because the lesson here has to do with those who consider themselves in this world righteous. Oh yes, they are first in righteousness before God, and they are important in this world.
They are the first, but they have not really taught the truth of God. They may be first in society or in their religion or church. There were many important Jews in Jesus' time, but they are going to be the last in the coming kingdom of God. The same is today. There are many quote Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Savior and their Lord and Master, who consider themselves first, but who will be last in the kingdom. Why? Because they're not teaching because they're not teaching the truths of God. They're teaching a mixture of paganism and all kinds of wrong ideas as the first sermon brought out. They don't teach the truth about what God's word says. In Matthew chapter 5, in Matthew chapter 5 and verse 17, Christ told his disciples. He said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. It's talking about the Old Testament. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. The term here means to fill to the full, to have it carried out as it should be taught, the spirit and the letter of God's law, as Christ taught. For surely I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away one jot or one tittle, talking about the Old Testament, will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. All is carried out. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. There was one problem with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and others, and that was, oh yes, they were very fervent and zealous of God's laws. They didn't have God's spirit. They could not keep God's spirit in the spirit. The law, they could not keep it in the spirit. And so, the way we can keep God's law is with the letter and the spirit having God's spirit. Romans 9 through 11, Paul develops that whole thought if you want to look into it even deeper.
And so here, again, it's talking about those who have given up a lot. They put Christ first, and taken a back seat to society. They have sacrificed and given up many blessings and benefits in this society to follow God. Maybe they had better positions in their job, but it meant that they couldn't keep the Sabbath and the Holy Days, and had to give it up. And so, everybody here has had some type of sacrifice that they have given up, and given up careers sometimes to follow God. Put Him first.
Maybe because their children are in the church, in school, they're not going to have all the access to the activities because they respect the Sabbath and the feasts. Maybe the kids won't do as much in sports or other activities because they put God first. They're not going to be playing baseball or basketball on the Sabbath day, or any of the Holy Days that are Holy Sabbaths as well. Holy Days of Rest. They put God first, and their desires last, while others compromise and put themselves and children first, but will then be last in God's Kingdom.
Now, why do we do this? Why do we put God first? Now, here are two main reasons for it. Number one, it's because knowing the truth, you know it's the right thing to do. So it's not a matter of whether you like it or not, or it's popular or not, or what you're going to lose, or it's the right thing to do. If you are wanting to be in that kingdom, in that first resurrection, if you're going to be a disciple of Christ now, you can't have it both ways. There has to be a sacrifice. In Acts chapter 5, it explains to us who received God's Spirit. Acts chapter 5, in verse 32, talking here, the apostles, it says, and we are his witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him. I should say which, which is correct because it's not a person, but which God has given to those who obey him. You see, you have to obey him if you want to receive God's Spirit. There is no compromising. As long as we're breaking God's laws, we're not putting him first. We have something that we have put as an idol in our lives that we have to remove first.
In Hebrews 11, in verse 35, look at what these people sacrificed to be part of that coming first resurrection, the better resurrection. Hebrews 11, in verse 35 through 38, talking about the men and women of faith, it says, women received their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection. Yes, even if you're going to be considered last in this society, in God's society, in that kingdom, you're going to be first. A better resurrection. They weren't willing to compromise. They weren't willing to sacrifice it. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned. They were sawn in two, like the prophet Isaiah in Jewish tradition went through. They were tempted, were slain by the sword. They wandered about in sheep skins and goat skins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented, of whom the world was not worthy.
Yeah, the world thinks, oh, those are the last people. See, they're not very important. See, we have the power. We have the wealth. They're not going to have it in God's kingdom.
God is calling those that are humble, submissive, and who don't think very greatly of themselves, as it tells us in 1 Corinthians chapter 1 verse 26. This is the way the church has been composed through the centuries. 1 Corinthians 1 verse 26 says, For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, nor not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty, and the base things of the world, and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not significant or important to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in his presence. That's why he doesn't call the Bill Gates. He doesn't call all these important rich men, because they were going to think, oh yeah, we deserve it, you see? We're so great, no wonder God called, so that nobody glories before him.
So those are the lessons that we can learn from this very simple, short phrase, the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.
There are three important lessons, then, to reiterate now. First of all, God judges very differently in this life than humans do.
Christ explains to his disciples they should not selfishly strive to be rewarded, and it says here, comparing the decision of the rich young ruler to that of his disciples. The rich young ruler who was, quote, first in that society, but had a covetous heart, would be last in respect to God's kingdom. It's a constant theme throughout the scripture, who God calls, who he's choosing. Those who sacrifice now will receive so much more than those who refused to sacrifice today. Secondly, it has to do when one is called.
Christ explains to his disciples they should not look to being rewarded the most because they were called first. Everyone will receive salvation once converted, no matter how late in one's life. Through God's mercy, each gets a denarius, each gets eternal life in that first resurrection. It doesn't matter when they are called. The importance is to persevere to the end and be part of those who are chosen. Now, we know that there will be additional blessings and rewards, as Christ mentioned there to his disciples that they already have positions where they're going to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. God is filling these positions, but it doesn't matter whether it was early in the church history or late in church history. He is filling out those positions. Each one is going to get eternal life, which is the most important thing. What we do afterwards, Christ will let us know.
And thirdly, it has to do with those who consider themselves, quote, religious and important in this world who think they are the first. Oh yes, they've got their seminaries, they've got all of the churches, they've got all of this power, they've got their catechisms and all of this very influential religious system, but they have not really taught God's truths. They may be first looked upon in this society, as many important Jews in Christ's day thought that they would be first in the kingdom, but would be last when Christ returns. The same is happening today. There are many Christians who have accepted Christ as Lord and Master who consider themselves first, but who will be last in God's kingdom? Because they did not teach the whole counsel of God. They did not teach the whole truth that's in the Bible. Once you start compromising one thing, it'll lead to others, just like in the first message. Christ did die and he was buried three days and three nights, not half a day here or half a night there. No, when he said that, it was three days and three nights, and it fits, but since people don't keep the holy days, they don't know about that Sabbath holy day, which was the first day of Unleavened Bread. That's where they get confused. So, brethren, there's a lot to meditate upon when we've gone over. We should examine ourselves and apply these teachings to our lives.
Mr. Seiglie was born in Havana, Cuba, and came to the United States when he was a child. He found out about the Church when he was 17 from a Church member in high school. He went to Ambassador College in Big Sandy, Texas, and in Pasadena, California, graduating with degrees in theology and Spanish. He serves as the pastor of the Garden Grove, CA UCG congregation and serves in the Spanish speaking areas of South America. He also writes for the Beyond Today magazine and currently serves on the UCG Council of Elders. He and his wife, Caty, have four grown daughters, and grandchildren.