Life After Death?

Hello again. In the early 1990s, a wave of unprecedented doctrinal changes swept through the worldwide Church of God, and many of us were there. And those doctrinal changes resulted in a complete change of belief structure, really unprecedented in Christian experience, and left thousands of people stunned and wondering what the Bible really taught. One of the great lessons that I took away from that experience when studying Scripture is that it is just as important to know the questions as it is to know the answers.

In my view, we were very good in those years about giving the answers, but we weren't very good about sharing what the questions were. And so when someone came along and said, hey, by the way, did you know that this Scripture says this and this Scripture says that? Many people went, oh, no, I didn't know that. Because we didn't focus a lot of times on individual Scriptures per se because we focused on what the answer was.

And those Scriptures didn't describe actually anything about it, but someone came along and said, no, no, actually, the Scripture does mean this. The Scripture does mean that. And so a lot of people became confused, and many, many people fell away. The last time I spoke here, I went through the three resurrections. And let's call that the answer. The answer to the question, what happens after death? So we spent about an hour, and we went through some 30-plus Scriptures that defined what happens after death. Very comprehensive. That's, let's say, the answer. But what are the questions?

And so this is the follow-up message to that sermon. If you haven't listened to that sermon, please do. This is really part two of that. So I'm not going to go through the answers, okay? I went through that in the last sermon.

This is more about the questions. Questions like, does the Bible say we go to heaven after we die? There are Scriptures that people will turn to that say, yes, the Bible does say that. Didn't Elijah go to heaven? Didn't Enoch go to heaven? Aren't the saints in heaven singing before the throne of God with harps? Wasn't Paul taken up into heaven? You see, these are questions. These are questions which are raised by individual Scriptures, which people will interpret in a certain way to say, well, actually, we do go to heaven.

And all these Scriptures can lead people to come to a different conclusion than what I went through two weeks ago. You see, there's something called confirmation bias. Now, I'm not going to try and give you a lecture on confirmation bias in the psychological term of what that means, but fundamentally, confirmation bias is where we look for things that confirm what we already believe.

And so someone could say, well, you know, when a pastor gets up and starts preaching about something, you know, he's just basically looking for Scriptures that are just going to confirm what he already believes, and that's what he's going to preach. So today, we're going to fundamentally confront that confirmation bias by saying, no, we're going to look at a whole bunch of other Scriptures that we typically don't look at, and we're going to find out what they say. You see, because sometimes what we'll do is we'll say, well, when the Bible says, Elijah went to heaven, we'll say, well, you know, John 3.13, remember?

Remember verse? Hopefully you remember John 3.13? No one has gone to heaven. No man has ascended to heaven except he who, you know, came down from heaven. We'll say, well, you know, John 3.13 says, no man has gone to heaven, therefore Elijah couldn't have gone to heaven, and then we kind of move on. Well, but we don't actually look at that verse and find out, well, what is that verse actually talking about? What's actually happening? And so we can very quickly dismiss these verses without really paying attention to them. You know, Mr.

D'Andrade made reference to these wolves coming in, right? And Acts 29 also makes reference to savage wolves come in and they draw away individuals. And I think it's important for us in God's church to not just know the answers, but also know the questions and know why people come to certain conclusions that they do and know why that reasoning makes sense or doesn't make sense. And in these cases here, we'll see, I'll give you a few views on why it doesn't make sense. So this is a split, so this is not intended to be a, you know, I'm not going to go and do a sermon on each one of these.

This is really just to acquaint you with the questions, okay? And after services, I invite you to come and join me in the back room there, and we'll talk a little bit more about this if you have some other questions, because I may not cover all the scriptures that may have come up. But if you come across a scripture and you go, hey, I wonder what that meant and why does it say that and does that mean something else and so forth?

Let's have this discussion, because this is really about you and me individually digging into our Bibles and finding out what some of these things mean. So we're going to go through the mainstream Catholic and Protestant teaching on heaven as defined by Scripture. I'm not going to go through Vatican councils. I'm not going to go through all these various things.

That's really not useful. But what do the Catholics say in terms of scriptures they go to? What do the Protestants say in terms of scriptures that they go to? We'll take a brief look at the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the story of Saul and, quote-unquote, the ghost of Samuel, whether Elijah was taken to heaven, whether Enoch was taken to heaven. And we'll go through some of those reasons, as I said, about why people think that these scriptures show that people go to heaven.

So this is, again, this is a doctrinal discussion. But really the point here is to motivate and inspire each of us to look into these things with some depth and really make sure we're grounded. Let somebody come along and say, no, no, no, John 3.13 doesn't mean that. No, no, no.

When it says no one has gone to heaven, see, that's just the Greek over here and this reference over there. And that's what happened is people came along and said, huh, tsk, tsk, tsk, you know. You know, let me just tell you, because I've gone to school for this many years, and in seminary they mention this, and you really just didn't get the full story. I'm so sorry. John 3.13 doesn't. See, that's what they'll do. They'll come along and say that. And so this discussion is not intended to be really deep, sort of in the Greek language. It says this in the Greek language. Now, this is just common sense. Let's just look at these in a common sense way and see what they say.

So let's start this discussion by just understanding what the Bible says about heaven. So there are actually three heavens described in Scripture. Let's turn to 2 Corinthians 12.2. Start with that. 2 Corinthians 12.2. Now, why do we say that there are three heavens? Well, because Paul describes something called the third heaven. So just like when I shared about the resurrections, the Bible named the first resurrection, and then you have to sort of imply others. We have the same way. The Bible names the third heaven, but then it doesn't name the first and second. So we have to kind of imply what the first and second might be.

2 Corinthians 12 verse 2. In here it says, I know a man in Christ who, 14 years ago, he's describing himself, whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows, such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

Okay, so the third heaven. Now, the third heaven in Scripture is referring to this place where God resides. This is what the third heaven is describing. And again, I won't go into a lot of other references here. But this is not other heavens that are described in the Bible. This is a different type of location.

The Bible talks about another type of heaven in Genesis 7 verse 11. Why don't we go over there? Genesis 7 in verse 11. And it doesn't name this heaven, but it's pretty well understood that Paul did not ascend into this heaven, that is to say mentally. Genesis 7 verse 11. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the day of all the fountains of the great deep were broken, and the windows of heaven were opened. The windows of heaven. The windows of heaven here is describing the sky. So this is where the clouds are, and those clouds produce rain, and they rain on the earth.

That's the heaven. There's another reference where the birds are. So there's a heaven. Now, typically, for shorthand, we'll use the term first heaven to describe the sky. You just look up in the sky, and that's the first heaven. There's also another heaven that's described, Exodus 32.13. Exodus 32 in verse 13. It says, here, Remember, Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven.

Okay, so now there's the heaven in terms of the stars and the planets, and there's various other references. Typically, we'll describe this as the second heaven, but again, the Bible doesn't use those terms. But if there's a third heaven, presumably there's a first and a second, and so this is where we come down.

We say, well, there's the first heaven, which is where the birds are and the clouds are, and then there's this second heaven, which is this great expanse beyond the earth, and then there's this third heaven, which is this place where God's throne resides. So when we talk about heaven, we have to make sure we know what we're talking about. So when people say they're going to heaven, they don't mean necessarily that they're going to be rained on. It doesn't mean that they're sitting on the moon.

It means that they're in this third heavenly place that Paul describes. So what do the Catholics say about heaven? If you want, you can go on to the Catholic Encyclopedia and you can type in heaven. There's about nine pages on the subject of heaven, it's an interesting read. There are exactly 15 scriptures cited in this eight pages, but by my count, only three actually support the doctrine of heaven. The other 12 make references to their view on beatific vision and how we'll see God when we're in heaven and how the angels are in heaven, things that don't actually support the basis of heaven.

So we're just going to look at the scriptures that the Catholics use to argue for the existence of going to heaven when you die, because that's really what we're talking about here. So I'll go ahead and just read you from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It says, "...with God and heaven are likewise the souls of the just." Okay, and they cite 2 Corinthians 5 verse 1. So let's go over to 2 Corinthians 5 verse 1. So according to the Catholics, the souls of the just are in heaven, and 2 Corinthians 5 verse 1 is their scriptural reference for that.

So let's read that together. For we know that if our earthly house, this tent is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. So many writers will look at this scripture and say, you see, God has built a mansion for us in heaven. And when we die, we will go to this mansion and we will be in heaven with God. And they'll use this verse to justify this because it says here that we have an eternal house in heaven.

Okay, so what does this mean? What does this mean? So what's important to note about this scripture here is if you look at the context, if you look in verse 10, Paul continues the discussion. He says, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad. So even in his own writings here in the same verse, he's describing how we have to go before the judgment seat.

So you'd have to, on your way to heaven, you'd have to go before the judgment seat of Christ. So you'd have to at least get that if you're going to go through this doctrine. But what's actually interesting, if you look at this, what's actually being described, and again, you have to study this for yourself, but what I see here, and what's pretty clear, is that he's contrasting a temporary physical existence that we have, which he likens to a tent because he was a tent maker.

And that's a very interesting analogy, actually, because a tent is, by definition, temporary, right? With something that is permanent and everlasting, that will never be destroyed. So the eternal here that he's describing is referring to the house, not to the location. The house is what's eternal. And you can look, and again, my purpose isn't to go through the Greek and the order and the inter-linearity, but what he's describing is an eternal house. That is, a house that will never be destroyed.

That is what is prepared for us, is an eternal house. We no longer have to be in this tent. So he's making this distinction between this temporary dwelling of a tent and an eternal house. Now, this eternal house, here it uses the term building or house, but really, what he's describing is something that is used in other places called an abode or a dwelling. That is, it is an eternal dwelling place. And he goes on to say, For in this we groan, earnestly desiring that we be clothed with our habitation, our habitation which is from heaven.

And this word habitation gets to this concept of dwelling. In fact, in my Bible, it actually has a little note that says dwelling or abode. That is, we want to be clothed with this dwelling. We want to be part of this dwelling with God. So this is not, there's not a giant house in the sky, right? Well, not in the sky, we know about the first heaven, but it's not in the third heaven. There's not a giant house in the third heaven where there's all these things. Now, this is talking about a dwelling or an abode where Paul is going to be clothed with this immortality that he's describing.

And of course, he talks about the judgment in verse 10. And keep in mind, this is the second letter to the Corinthians. And in the first letter, Paul made a very specific reference about being clothed with immortality. And so if you look over in 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Corinthians 15, we'll actually see this. 1 Corinthians 15 verse 53, he says, This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this put on is a reference to clothing. You're actually going to put on this clothing. And this mortal must put on, again, put on being clothing, immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that has written death is swallowed up in victory.

So Paul's building on this same concept. And of course, 1 Corinthians 15 goes through the resurrection and all the things that we've talked about earlier. And so for Paul to somehow forget about everything he wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 about a resurrection and make reference to being clothed, and then say, actually, no, that resurrection, where we're going to be a resurrection, actually is going to be a resurrection to some sort of a house in the sky would be inconsistent.

And he's actually building on something that Jesus Christ himself talked about in John 14 verse 2. This is also another scripture. The Catholics don't use it, at least not in this piece. But if you come across teachings on heaven, you'll come across John 14 and verse 2. So let's look at John 14 and verse 2. In my father's house are many mansions. So here's this same sort of reference. But again, this word, mansion, is this reference to a bode or a dwelling. If it were not so, I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you. And the NIV actually says, I go and I'll be preparing this place in this reference in heaven.

And so people will look at this and say, oh well, so he's going to heaven to prepare a place in heaven where you will be after you die. And it's a mansion in heaven, and you're going to be in this giant mansion in heaven. But of course, if we continue reading in verse 3, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself that where I am, there you may be also. So all you have to do is read verse 3 to see sort of the follow on to that.

That well, he went to heaven and he's preparing this reward, this reward for us, but then he's going to return. And when he returns, he's going to be on the earth, and then we're going to be with him on the earth. And of course, you know, what we go to there is over in Revelation 21, we see this because where is God going to dwell?

Where's this analogy of these mansions, or this house, or this building, or this abode, or this dwelling? Well we see it in Revelation 21. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Again, there's a reference to a first heaven, but this is a broader sense. And also there was no more sea. And then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. So this New Jerusalem descends to the earth. And why does it send to the earth?

It says, I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, verse 3, Behold, the tabernacle of God, the dwelling of God, is with men. And he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them, and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

And behold, I will make all things new. Does this sound like a wonderful sort of situation to be in? Yeah, this is describing the new heaven and a new earth which descends to earth. God's New Jerusalem descending to earth. And so this is where God will be. God will dwell with men. To think that Paul would say that we're going to be in the sky in mansions is just sort of inconsistent. So again, you've got to study this for yourself. I think it's pretty clear that he's contrasting the eternal immortality that we're going to be clothed with, with the temporariness of this life, and that this reward is prepared for us, as Jesus describes, he's preparing a place for us and that is that is going to descend to earth, that heaven is coming to earth.

But again, you've got to study it for yourself to come to your own conclusion. The second verse that the Catholics use here is Matthew 5 verse 3. And again, what they're proving is that heaven is the place of the souls of the just. Matthew 5 verse 3. And we read this a bit earlier, so you should be familiar with it. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So the poor in spirit are in heaven, because theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

That's what they'll say. Now, the issue with this is that the kingdom of heaven, that term, Matthew is the only gospel writer that actually uses the term kingdom of heaven. All the other gospel writers use the term kingdom of God. And in fact, Matthew himself actually uses these terms interchangeably. So if you look over in Matthew 19, and again, if you want to just write Matthew 19, 23, 24 next to that place, just to remind you, Matthew 19 verse 23 says, Then Jesus said to his disciples, Asurelai, say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

And again, I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. See, Matthew even uses kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God interchangeably. Many scholars actually believe that the reason Matthew used the term kingdom of heaven is because his readers at that time had a tendency to avoid the direct use of the name of God. That is, the Jews of the time preferred not to necessarily hear that name. And so to be sensitive to that, he used the term kingdom of heaven. If you want to see a reference on that, you can look at the New Bible Dictionary.

The New Bible Dictionary is where that quote comes from. So, kingdom of heaven. The third verse they use is Matthew 5 verse 12. It says here, "...but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive you..." Oh, excuse me, I'm in 6. Matthew 5 verse 12. Sorry. "...rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For so they persecute the prophets who were before you." So according to the Catholics, our reward is in heaven, and that's where we're going to go after we die. So is our reward in heaven? Well, what I would look at here is another person who was at the time who heard it, which would be Peter.

So Peter was there. He would have heard Jesus' teaching on this. And Peter in 1 Peter 1 verse 3 clarifies this. 1 Peter 1 verse 3. Peter says here, "...blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through going to heaven through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance incorruptible..." This sounds familiar with Paul, right? Very consistent. "...and undefiled, that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you." So Peter understood this, that our reward is reserved in heaven.

So is our reward in heaven? Well, yes, in that sense, it is in heaven. It's reserved in heaven for us. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is in heaven. It's just prepared there, as Jesus went and prepared for his kingdom to come. I guess there were two verses in Matthew. The final verse that's used here is Ephesians 4 verse 8. If you go to Ephesians 4 verse 8. Again, I'm going to quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia. In Ephesians 4 verse 8, and I'm quoting now, I'm quoting.

In Ephesians 4 verse 8, we are told that Christ conducted to heaven the patriarchs who had been in limbo. Let's read Ephesians 4 verse 8. Therefore, he says, when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. I'm going to go on to the next one.

This one I'm going to work on a little bit more. I really want to find out how you get patriarchs and limbo in Ephesians 4 verse 8. But that's what the Catholic Encyclopedia says. I really do want to understand how they do that. That's the references. That's it. Those are all the scriptures concerning heaven in the Catholic Encyclopedia. All right. So let's see. What do the Protestants say? I've gone.

This is from a website from the United Methodist Church. This is one of the largest mainstream Protestant denominations in the United States. This is under their frequently asked questions, What happens after a person dies? Do they go directly to heaven or hell, or do they go to a holding place until Christ returns to earth for the final judgment? Throughout history, people have wondered what happens after death. While we may want a clear-cut answer, we are called simply to trust God that ultimately we will be in His care and that His kingdom will come.

That is the answer according to the United Methodist Church. There is no clear-cut answer. Now I find it interesting because Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 verse 13 says, I don't want you to be ignorant about those who have fallen asleep. Then he goes on to describe the resurrection. So let me go on. The traditional Christian view has always been that those who believe will share eternal joy with God in heaven, while those who refuse God's love suffer endless separation from God. Many Christians through the centuries have believed that when a person dies, they remain dead, asleep, until the final judgment, at which time they are resurrected to life or punishment.

Scripture references in both the Old and New Testament seem to agree with the position that we remain asleep until the final judgment. Interesting.

Other biblical passages, such as Jesus' words to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise, seem to indicate that we will be with God immediately after death. So let's go to Luke 23.43. So the gist of what they're saying here, and it's a short piece, is that we really don't know. We might go to heaven immediately, or we might stay in a state of sleep until the resurrection. We're not sure, and we need to trust God that will take care of us. So let's look at Luke 23, in verse 43.

Luke 23, in verse 43, And Jesus said to him, Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Now, we've gone through this Scripture for many years in God's Church, and a lot of times we'll go to grammar, and we'll talk about comma places. In fact, I think we had a sermonette recently on that. So that's certainly appropriate, but without getting into commas and so forth, there's just a few notes that we should all have on this. The first thing is that Jesus was not in paradise that day. He was in the grave.

He himself said that he had to spend three days and three nights in the grave. So if what he meant was, today you will be with me in paradise, then he got it wrong, because he himself was not in paradise. So that's just a little bit problematic. So that would be the first thing to keep in mind. The second one is the context here is the Kingdom of God, and that's right before it says, Then he said to him, in verse 42, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. So the reference is, as most Jews at the time would understand, a kingdom of God. And then lastly, the paradise that's being referred to here this word is not used too often. You can look over in Revelation 2 verse 7. We won't take the time to turn there, but Revelation 2 verse 7 uses the same term, paradise, in reference to the tree of life being offered. And of course, the tree of life is offered at the end of Revelation with the new heavens and new earth. So I think there's lots of things that we could go here besides getting into Greek grammar, which of course there were no commas. These two people were speaking to one another. Jesus did not say, today, you will be with me in paradise, period, exclamation point. He didn't speak that way. This was a dramatic situation. These two men were about to die. They're gasping for breath. And he makes this statement, this very dramatic statement, and he begins it, Christ begins it with amen, right? Assuredly, verily, verily. I'm going to tell you something dramatic. I'm going to tell you that your faith is so great that I can see that you will be in the resurrection, and you will be in paradise. This is what he's conveying to this man. And we don't have to go to commas and so forth. It's clear that they were not in paradise that day. And so to use this to say you go to heaven, again, you have to study it for yourself, but it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. There are, continuing along, they're quoting now from Thomas G. Long, professor at Chandler School of Theology, about a new book that he did on funerals to the question of what happens after death. He says, there are two images in the New Testament about what happens. First, the resurrection day, when the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible. If you only have that image, what we would imagine is that when people die, they lie in some intermediate state, awaiting the great resurrection day. That's pretty much what I went through two weeks ago. The other image, however, is that death contains no victory at all, and as soon as we die, we are with God. We get this in the book of Revelation, where John looks up and already the saints who have died are praising God around the throne. Now, he doesn't give a scriptural reference for this, but let's go over to Revelation 15. So we understand what he's saying here.

Revelation 15, verse 2, says, And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are your works. So these are people who are praising God in heaven, here in Revelation 15. These are those that had victory over the beast. It says in verse 2, So do people go to heaven, and then they sing in heaven? Well, again, I think if we understand the chronology here, we know from Revelation 11, verse 15, just turn back there, The seventh angel sounded, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever. And we understand that that is the seventh Trump, and on the seventh Trump, that's when the resurrection occurs of all those who are in Christ. And so by the time you get to Revelation 15, they are in heaven with Christ singing before the throne of God. These are the resurrected saints. So these people here have indeed been resurrected. Another reference is in Revelation 7, verse 9. Revelation 7, verse 9 says, After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude, which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, people, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands. And verse 13 says, Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where do they come from? So he's like, Who are these people?

Verse 14, And I said to him, Sir, you know, so he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the lamb. So these are all the people who came to understand Christ during the great tribulation. We don't want to be part of this, by the way. This is really, these people would have endured a great deal. And again, the view is, well, see, these people died and went to heaven.

And so that's, you know, that's why we die and we go to heaven. But again, we understand that these people came out of the great tribulation. So you haven't answered the question, what happened to all the people who lived and died for thousands of years before then? And chapter seven is really a parenthetical thought in the whole flow. You can see from Revelation 6 that you go through the first seal, and then the fifth seal is the great tribulation in verse nine. And then you have sort of this parenthetical thought in verse seven about the 144,000, and then the follow on of the great multitude. And then in chapter eight, you continue with the seventh seal all the way to to the resurrection. So again, those are the two references that you have to people being in heaven. So that's it. Whatever happens after death, we live with hope in life eternal and in the assurance that neither death nor life nor angels nor rulers nor things present nor things to come. Quoting Romans 8 will separate us from God. Mainstream Protestant teaching on heaven. Again, I encourage you to go look for yourself into these things. Some people will say that Stephen went to heaven.

Look over in Acts 7 verse 56. Acts 7 verse 56.

Actually, in verse 56, Stephen is being stoned and he says, look, I see the heavens open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. So Stephen has this vision of Jesus Christ, and it says in verse 59, and they stone Stephen as he was calling on God, saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not charge them with this sin. And so people will say, well, see, Stephen went to heaven. He asked God to receive his spirit, and so Stephen went to heaven. Our reference here, a lot of times we go to is Ecclesiastes 3 verse 21. This would be consistent with Stephen's understanding.

Stephen, having studied the Scriptures, he was obviously a man who was well versed in what we call today the Old Testament, would have understood this. And so it's not surprising that he would have said exactly what he said in Ecclesiastes. And I might get over there.

All right, Ecclesiastes 3 verse 21. It says, And so Stephen would have understood that upon death he would become unconscious, and that the spirit and man, his spirit, would ascend and be with God. And he would be in this, as is described by the mainstream Protestants, this intermediate state, this state of sleep, this lack of consciousness. And of course, another reference here is Ecclesiastes 9 in verse 10, just a few pages over. Okay, so those are the mainstream Protestants and Catholic teachings on heaven. I encourage you to look into this more. And again, if there's other teachings or things that you've wondered about, let's go into. But we sometimes pass over these scriptures without really looking into them. But there's obviously a lot to study, but nothing that's inconsistent with the teaching of the resurrection and the fact that we are in this intermediate state after death, the state of sleep, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4.

So let's talk about Lazarus and the rich man. Look over in Luke 16. Luke 16 in verse 9.

Sorry, verse 19. Luke 16 in verse 19.

There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and faired subduously every day. The rich man is not named. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, this beggar is named, full of sores who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table, wherever the dogs came and looked at his sores. So it was that the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he, the rich man, lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham a far off in Lazarus and his bosom. And then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he might dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things and likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

And besides all this, between us and you, there is a great gulf fixed so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from their pass to us. And then he said, I beg you there for Father that you would send him to my Father's house, for I have five brothers that may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. And Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets let them hear. And he said, No, Father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they persuade through one, though one rise from the dead. And so mainstream Christians will look at this and say, you have an example of hell where the rich man went and you have an example of heaven where Lazarus went. Abraham's bosom is describing heaven. And so this is a doctrinal teaching on heaven and hell. And of course Dante's Inferno and various other works of literature have been written. Here, there's lots we can say, but I'm just going to quote the Expositor's Bible commentary.

There's also a study paper on this on the United Church of God website. But again, to avoid confirmation bias, I'll just quote someone else here. It says, The Expositor's basic concern is not the nature and history of this story, but its primary significance in the Luchian context.

It is set in a series of encounters with the Pharisees. So they're saying this is set in a series of encounters with the Pharisees. Its meaning must be understood in that context. The Pharisees did not follow their own scriptures, the law and the prophets. So they were no better than the rich man's brothers who have Moses and the prophets. The Pharisees professed belief in a future life and a future judgment. However, they did not live in conformity with that belief, but rather in the pursuit of wealth, just like the rich man in the parable. Even Jesus's resurrection, possibly alluded to in verse 31, would not convince them. It is implicit in this account that one's attitude to God and His Word is confirmed in this life, and that it cannot be altered in the next.

Now note carefully here. While the parable does contain a few doctrinal implications, the expositor must keep in mind that one cannot build an eschatology that is a whole set of doctrines around it. To do that will result in an anachronism. For in Revelation 20 verse 14, we see the throwing of death and Hades into the lake of fire at the end of history, that is the second death. In this story, the rich man is already in a torment of fire in his body while his brothers are still living. It should be understood as a story containing limited eschatological ideas familiar to Jesus's audience. Thus understood, the story makes a powerful case for the future reversal of the human condition, the reality of a future judgment based on one's decisions in this life, and the futility of even a resurrection to persuade those who persist and rejecting God's revealed word. This is a story. There's no doctrinal... well, they call this... they say few doctrinal implications. This is a story. That's all it is, and I'm quoting from standard mainstream Christian commentary here. Another thing they would mention is Hades in verse 23 is in early classic literature, Hades was a term for the place of departed souls.

Or spirits. In the Septuagint, it represents the Hebrew sheol, the realm of the dead. It occurs 10 times in the New Testament, two of them in Luke. In the New Testament, Hades is never used of the destiny of the believer. Neither is it identified with Gehenna, which is generally usually connected with fiery judgment. So they're saying even the words themselves would imply this cannot be referring to hell. There's a lot more I could share here, but again, this is a parable about how the Pharisees will not listen to Jesus's word. Neither will they actually follow the law and the prophets, and their interest is in primarily living a very rich life in this current life. What about the story of Saul and the ghost of Samuel? Look over in 1 Samuel 28.

1 Samuel 28 and verse 3. This is a story where Samuel is supposedly resurrected from the dead and speaks to Saul. Let's read this story here. 1 Samuel 28 verse 3. Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented for him, and buried him in Rama in his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the spiritus out of the land. 2 Then the Philistines gathered together and came and encamped at Shem, and so Saul gathered all Israel together. When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets. 3 Then Saul said to his servants, Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, In fact, there is a medium who is a medium at indoor. For you Star Wars fans, this is not the same indoor. This is a different indoor. 4 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night, and he said, Please conduct a seance for me, and bring for me the one I shall name to you. And so there's a little exchange. And in verse 11, the woman said, Whom shall I bring up for you? And he said, Bring up Samuel for me. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice, and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me, for you are Saul? And the king said to her, Do not be afraid, what do you see? And the woman said to Saul, I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth. And so he said to her, What is his form? And she said, An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

Now Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? And Saul answered, I am deeply distressed, for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me, and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you that you may reveal to me what I should do. And so Samuel goes on to describe what's going to happen to Saul. So people will say, Here we go. We have an example. Some people go to heaven, some people go to hell. In this case, Samuel was in this intermediate state, awaiting a resurrection, and he was conjured up by this medium. So what is it? Was it really Samuel? Was it not Samuel? I'm just going to read you an excerpt from the Catholic, this is the National Catholic Register from October 31st, 2014. It says here, in 1 Samuel 28, of course, we are told of Saul's encounter with the witch of Endor, who summoned Samuel to predict Saul's fate.

The church fathers, these would be the early Catholic writers, Augustine and Tertullian and so forth, were largely unanimous in calling this a demonic apparition and not a true vision of the risen soul of Samuel. So early Catholic teaching was that this was not Samuel, just for the record. So again, we're just looking to what others might say.

I personally don't think this is Samuel, and I don't think this is Samuel because we see in verse 7 that God refused to speak to Saul. So I don't think that God would somehow be either change his mind or like, oh shoot, Samuel just bypassed me. I just wish he hadn't done, you know, Saul just bypassed me. I wish he hadn't done that. I forgot about the fact he could go to that medium and conjure him up. Wow, that's too bad. I guess I'm forced to resurrect Samuel and have Samuel speak to him. So I don't think God was constrained that way. And so now what you have to do is you have to say that Satan and his demons have the power to resurrect people.

And now you're really gone off the rails. Okay? There's just nothing in Scripture that would give you any indication that Satan and his demons have any capability to do any miracle, let alone a miracle of resurrecting somebody from the dead. So I just think that's a huge stretch. I think more likely if you go to 2 Corinthians 11, 2 Corinthians verse 11 and verse 14, I think more likely what we have here is a demon pretending to be Samuel.

And we see that this actually can happen. 2 Corinthians 11 and in verse 14 it says, And no wonder, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. So Paul himself gives us a testimony here that the demons can transform themselves into ministers of righteousness. So it would be no surprise that a demon would pretend to be Samuel in this case. And of course, we won't turn there, but Leviticus 19 verse 31 says that we should give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits, and we should not seek them out. So in any case, there's no reference to heaven in this, but some people who would argue for heaven believe that's the case.

Okay, just to wrap up here then, did Elijah go to heaven?

We made reference to that. Let's go over to 2 Kings 2. 2 Kings 2 verse 11.

We read here, Then it happened as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

So did Elijah go to heaven? He sure did. The question is, what heaven did he go to?

Well, we can see from the context here that the people at the time, they knew what heaven he went to. He went up into the sky and he landed someplace else.

And so in verse 15, it says, Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, The Spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha, and they came to meet him and bowed to the ground before him. And they said, Look, now there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or in some valley. And he said, You shall not send anyone. So they knew he had been taken up, and he had been placed down someplace else, and they wanted to make sure he was safe. You know, they didn't want him to be stranded in some mountain or stranded in some place where there wasn't food or water, and that he would be safe.

This context here is clearly a secession of power. This is the peaceful transition of power. It was time for Elisha to take on the mantle of Elijah, and these two had to be separated. And Elisha was not going to separate himself, and so Elijah had to be taken away so that God would make it clear that Elisha was now the person who he was going to work with. And Elijah was no longer the person who he was going to be working with.

And then, of course, later on, in 2 Chronicles 21, let's go over in 2 Chronicles 21, we see that Elijah, from wherever he was, wrote a letter to the king about 10 years later.

So if Elijah went to heaven, miraculously a letter must have fallen down from heaven to the king 10 years later. So in 2 Chronicles 21, verse 12, And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus says the Lord God of your father David, because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Aesop the king of Judah. And he goes on to describe it.

So I don't think there's really much basis to think that he went to heaven, and then 10 years later wrote a letter from heaven. And again, I don't think there's much basis to think that the people around there were just confused. They thought he had been taken to a valley, but instead he had been taken to heaven. Another reference here that you go to is Acts 8, verse 39, because this also happened to Philip. It doesn't say Philip was taken up to heaven. It just says Philip was taken. Acts 8, verse 39 and 40. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more, and he went on his way rejoicing. So what happened to Philip also happened to Elijah. The Spirit of the Lord came and said, I'm taking away, and we have sort of this transport to another location. Philip wasn't taken to heaven. Nobody's confused about that. Philip was just taken away to another place, just like Elijah was taken away to another place. Is the eunuch in heaven?

Some people will turn over to Hebrews 11, verse 5, and say, eunuch is in heaven.

You can also reference Genesis 5.24 if you're writing down Hebrews 11.5. Hebrews 11.5 Hebrews 11, verse 5 says, By faith, eunuch was translated so that he did not see death, and was not found because God had translated him, quoting from Genesis 5, verse 24. For before his translation, he had this testimony that he pleased God. So some people will say, well, see, here we go. Eunuch didn't die, and he went to heaven. He was taken up to heaven. Well, if you just go down a few verses in verse 13, you can also see here, in reference to all the people that were just mentioned, whether it was Abel or Eunuch or Noah or Abraham, these all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off. So what is it? Did did did Enoch die, or did he not die? Well, Hebrews 11, verse 13 says that he died, just like Noah and Abraham and everyone else. So if you take that out of the word, then Enoch did die. So very likely what happened here was that Enoch, it says here, did not see death.

That is to say, he lived at a very, very difficult time before the flood with probably terrible persecutions and just all sorts of heinous crimes that were going on around him. And so God spared him from all of that trouble in his life and took him so that he did not see death, a difficult death or a violent death, or the great death that was all around him. But to say that he did not die would be contradictory to Hebrews 11, verse 13. You can also look over in Isaiah 57, verse 1. There's also I think an interesting comparison here in Isaiah 57, verse 1.

It says, the righteous perishes and no one takes it to heart. Merciful men are taken away.

Merciful men are taken away. That is to say, they are spared, but through death. Well, no one considers the righteous is taken away from evil. So he was a merciful man who was taken away.

Okay, hopefully I've given you lots of food for thought. If you've got some other scriptures, let's talk about them. But these are the main scriptures that I've come across.

This is kind of how I view those scriptures. You've got to know the questions. These are the questions. This is why people think they go to heaven, because they look at these, they put them all together, and then they have to somehow reconcile that to the resurrection. But when we understand the context of each of these, and again, I didn't quote John 3.13. I didn't quote 1st Thessalonians, although maybe only briefly, 1 Corinthians 15, Revelation 20, all these other scriptures. Just try to use them. Just look at these things in context. Hopefully you can study these things and really come to grips with them. And if you have any questions, let's talk about them.